LAS VEGAS... WHAT THEY DIDN'T TELLYOU! WHAT HAPPENS IN VEGAS.... DOESN'T STAY IN VEGAS... It goes to the FBI!

[HMFIC~1369]

Las Vegas was forced to cancel their stays in Vegas Commercials, because now
All Travel and Hotel Reservations are NOW tracked by the
FBI..................

[dufrene237]

and what is your source on this?

[Latrine Orderly Canadian War Library]

hell I'd just like to know what the fuck he said or at least have it
translated into English

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[HMFIC~1369]

You have a tough time understanding anything over single syllable
words............Wipe your chin your drooling shit again.

Post by Latrine Orderly Canadian War Library
hell I'd just like to know what the fuck he said or at least have it
translated into English

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[HMFIC~1369]

I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and not have
to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[Nigel Brooks]

You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel and
hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI.................. is false.

Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively subpoena
travel and hotel reservations if that information was considered relevant to
an ongoing investigation.

There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and most
certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which would require
that companies providing such a service automatically provide that
information to the federal government for tracking purposes.

International travel into the United States has been tracked by the US
Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the Advanced
Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs Service put a
requirement on airlines arriving in the United States from foreign to
provide electronic advanced passenger manifest information as soon as the
aircraft left the foreign port or place. This information was then checked
through the various databases such as NCIC etc. It allowed the federal
government to provide the necessary arrival courtesies for those passengers
arriving in the United States who were the subject of outstanding warrants,
suspected smugglers etc.

But there is certainly no government data base in existance which tracks all
travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and not
have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[Ike]

Post by Nigel Brooks
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which tracks
all travel and hotel reservations

Pity! If it would help to use travel analysis algorithms to focus our
internal intelligence efforts, let's do it. In fact, I'm not certain it's
not happening. I'm all for any effective antiterrorism focus, and that
includes racial profiling.

It also includes proving to Islamic governments that we have the will and
the means to replace them if - after an event - our perfect analysis
indicates that their pro-active counterterrorism effort (however secret)
might have prevented another act of terrorism. That's worked since 9/11, and
it's one thing that the Bush administration got right.

Unfortunately, as the next election approaches and Bush's support continues
to wane, Islamic leaders will become less eager to help because the threat
of losing their jobs will disappear. Stay tuned!

Ike

[HMFIC~1369]

Clueless! another Chicken Little scared little kid!

Post by Ike

Post by Nigel Brooks
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which tracks
all travel and hotel reservations

Pity! If it would help to use travel analysis algorithms to focus our
internal intelligence efforts, let's do it. In fact, I'm not certain it's
not happening. I'm all for any effective antiterrorism focus, and that
includes racial profiling.
It also includes proving to Islamic governments that we have the will and
the means to replace them if - after an event - our perfect analysis
indicates that their pro-active counterterrorism effort (however secret)
might have prevented another act of terrorism. That's worked since 9/11,
and it's one thing that the Bush administration got right.
Unfortunately, as the next election approaches and Bush's support
continues to wane, Islamic leaders will become less eager to help because
the threat of losing their jobs will disappear. Stay tuned!
Ike

[HMFIC~1369]

Not true! First off United and Continenetal and American all supplied
private and personal flight information to the FBI and will continue to do
so.

Nigel, After the Terroristic Threat last New Years in Las Vegas the FBI
recieved all Flight and Hotel information from Las Vegas. Even when I flew
out there shortly after 9/11 all of my personal Flight and Hotel information
was gathered by the FBI. United even apologized!

They don't have to track travel and hotel reservations, they let the hotels
and airlines do that. They just get the data they want when they want it.

Patriot Act ? You tell me one company that would not supply such information
and risk the wolves and the full rath of the Feds?????...............

you are pretty funny!

a.. Further dismantles court review of surveillance, such as by
terminating court-approved limits on police spying on religious and
political activity (sec. 312), allowing the government to obtain credit
records and library records secretly and without judicial oversight (secs.
126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court order for up to 15
days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);
b.. Allows government to operate in secret by authorizing secret arrests
(sec. 201), and imposing severe restrictions on the release of information
about the hazards to the community posed by chemical and other plants (sec.
202);
c.. Further expands the reach of an already overbroad definition of
terrorism so that organizations engaged in civil disobedience are at risk of
government wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) asset seizure (secs. 428, 428), and
their supporters could even risk losing their citizenship (sec. 501);
d.. Gives foreign dictatorships the power to seek searches and seizures in
the United States (sec. 321), and to extradite American citizens to face
trial in foreign courts (sec. 322), even if the United States Senate has not
approved a treaty with that government; and
e.. Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting terrorism by
stripping even lawful immigrants of the right to a fair deportation hearing
and stripping the federal courts of their power to correct unlawful actions
by the immigration authorities (secs. 503, 504).


Airlines gave U.S. vast data after Sept. 11
Millions of files surrendered by major carriers
John Schwartz, Micheline Maynard, New York Times

Saturday, May 1, 2004


a.. Printable Version
b.. Email This Article



In the days following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's
largest airlines, including United, American and Northwest, turned over
millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday.

A senior official with the FBI said the airlines had cooperated willingly.
Some, like Northwest, provided as much as a year's worth of passenger
records, which typically include names, addresses, travel destinations and
credit card numbers.

"There was no reluctance on the part of anybody," added the senior FBI
official, who said bureau rules required him to speak anonymously.

The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's general
legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had been
accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or because
the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a "course of
business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed.

Airline industry officials said they could not remember another such
sweeping request. In the past, airlines have routinely provided data to the
FBI, but typically requests concerned the passengers on a single flight or
the travel patterns of an individual passenger.

"It was an extraordinary event," the bureau official said. "People wanted to
cooperate with the FBI because of the events that had just occurred -- and
particularly the airlines, because airplanes were the tool by which the
attacks were carried out."

The FBI official said that the purpose of the data dragnet was to detect
attacks in the making through patterns in the travel records.

"They developed a model of what these hijackers were doing," he said, "and
went back and looked, based on that model, to see if we could find
associates, conspirators or other groups out there, particularly in the time
immediately following 9/11." There is no indication that the passenger data
produced any significant evidence about the plot or the hijackers, the FBI
official said.

The sharing of airline passenger data with the government has sparked some
of the most contentious conflicts underlying the uneasy balance between
privacy and security in the post-Sept. 11 world. Three airlines --
Northwest, American and JetBlue -- have acknowledged sharing weeks' or
months' worth of data with government researchers or contractors as part of
an effort to help develop new methods to spot terrorists.

But the disclosure that airlines had handed over such an enormous trove of
data directly to government criminal investigators -- 6,000 CD-ROMs full of
digital records from Northwest alone -- raised red flags among privacy
advocates, who played a role in uncovering the information transfer.

"It certainly takes the airline privacy issue to a new level, because it's
much more material than we've ever seen disclosed," said David Sobel, the
general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a high-tech
policy and advocacy group in Washington.

Tim Wagner, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the company had
"cooperated fully" with the FBI in the days and weeks following the attacks,
in which it lost two planes.

Northwest, in a written response to questions, said the release of data was
justified. "Northwest Airlines cooperated fully with the FBI in its
investigation, including the provision of passenger name records (PNRs) for
a 12-month period leading up to September 2001, as requested by the FBI,"
the statement said.

United Airlines also responded to inquiries with a statement:

"United, committed to assisting the FBI with its criminal investigation into
the 9/11 terrorist attacks, complied with the government's subpoenas for
information following the events of 9/11. United provided the FBI with
information in a manner that is consistent with our corporate policy on
privacy."

Delta Air Lines, the nation's third largest carrier, declined to comment on
whether it had given passenger records to federal investigators.

The first hint of the large-scale data hand-over came in January during
hearings of the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks. Andrew
Studdert, the former chief operating officer of United Airlines, testified
that United had set up extensive facilities for FBI agents in its
headquarters near Chicago and had made available "thousands of pages of
records."

But that disclosure was overlooked because of dramatic testimony the same
day from Gerard J. Arpey, American's chief executive, who played a tape of a
call from flight attendant Betty Ong to a reservations center from aboard
hijacked Flight 11.

Some records, including financial information and health records, have
strong privacy protection under federal and state laws, but the data
contained in passenger records do not fall under the protected areas, the
FBI said.

Post by Nigel Brooks
You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel and
hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI.................. is false.
Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively subpoena
travel and hotel reservations if that information was considered relevant
to an ongoing investigation.
There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and most
certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which would require
that companies providing such a service automatically provide that
information to the federal government for tracking purposes.
International travel into the United States has been tracked by the US
Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the Advanced
Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs Service put a
requirement on airlines arriving in the United States from foreign to
provide electronic advanced passenger manifest information as soon as the
aircraft left the foreign port or place. This information was then
checked through the various databases such as NCIC etc. It allowed the
federal government to provide the necessary arrival courtesies for those
passengers arriving in the United States who were the subject of
outstanding warrants, suspected smugglers etc.
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which tracks
all travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and not
have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[Nigel Brooks]

Yes - Not true.

Your post infers that all travel and hotel reservation information is
tracked by the FBI yet you provide one reference which proves that is not
the case. The reference you provided said " In the days following the
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's largest airlines, including
United, American and Northwest, turned over millions of passenger records to
the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday"

the article then continued as follows:

"The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had been
accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or because
the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a "course of
business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed."

Your depiction of the patriot act as "allowing the government to obtain
credit records and library records secretly and without judicial oversight
(secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court order for up
to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);"

conveniently overlooks the fact that federal agencies have had the ability
to do such things for years. An administrative subpoena is issued "without
judicial oversight" numerous federal agencies have been given the authority
to subpoena credit records, library records or any other records which were
considered relevant to an ongoing investigation. The patriot act merely
provided the FBI with similar authority in terrorism investigations. Title
III has always included a provision whereby a wiretap could be initiated by
an authorized federal agency in an emergency without a court order - the act
required that once the tap was initiated - an application be made to a court
without delay. The purpose was to allow the government to initiate a
wiretap in an emergency situation. The patriot act extended that authority
to the FBI in terrorism investigations. In order to initiate a non
consensual monitoring - there has to be a specific law which authorizes it -
there was no such "emergency" provision for terrorist investigations until
the passing of the patriot act.

Your claim that section 321 gives foreign dictarships the power to seek
searches and seizures in the United States is misleading. Section 321
amended Title 28USC 1782 to clarify that the United States may seek search
warrants, pen/trap orders, and ECPA orders, in response to the requests of
foreign governments. The application process is still guided by the
constitutional safeguards which apply to all search warrants, pen/trap trace
orders, and ECPA orders. In other words they would have to meet the same
standards

But rather than regurgitate stuff you have found on the internet - can you
name one instance where you personally, or someone you know has been
adversely effected by the passing of the patriot act. Do you have personal
knowledge of anyone who has been the subject of a library surveillance,
wiretap, search without notification, etc etc?
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
Not true! First off United and Continenetal and American all supplied
private and personal flight information to the FBI and will continue to do
so.
Nigel, After the Terroristic Threat last New Years in Las Vegas the FBI
recieved all Flight and Hotel information from Las Vegas. Even when I flew
out there shortly after 9/11 all of my personal Flight and Hotel
information was gathered by the FBI. United even apologized!
They don't have to track travel and hotel reservations, they let the
hotels and airlines do that. They just get the data they want when they
want it.
Patriot Act ? You tell me one company that would not supply such
information and risk the wolves and the full rath of the
Feds?????...............
you are pretty funny!
a.. Further dismantles court review of surveillance, such as by
terminating court-approved limits on police spying on religious and
political activity (sec. 312), allowing the government to obtain credit
records and library records secretly and without judicial oversight (secs.
126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court order for up to
15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);
b.. Allows government to operate in secret by authorizing secret arrests
(sec. 201), and imposing severe restrictions on the release of information
about the hazards to the community posed by chemical and other plants
(sec. 202);
c.. Further expands the reach of an already overbroad definition of
terrorism so that organizations engaged in civil disobedience are at risk
of government wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) asset seizure (secs. 428, 428),
and their supporters could even risk losing their citizenship (sec. 501);
d.. Gives foreign dictatorships the power to seek searches and seizures
in the United States (sec. 321), and to extradite American citizens to
face trial in foreign courts (sec. 322), even if the United States Senate
has not approved a treaty with that government; and
e.. Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting terrorism
by stripping even lawful immigrants of the right to a fair deportation
hearing and stripping the federal courts of their power to correct
unlawful actions by the immigration authorities (secs. 503, 504).
Airlines gave U.S. vast data after Sept. 11
Millions of files surrendered by major carriers
John Schwartz, Micheline Maynard, New York Times
Saturday, May 1, 2004
a.. Printable Version
b.. Email This Article
In the days following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's
largest airlines, including United, American and Northwest, turned over
millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday.
A senior official with the FBI said the airlines had cooperated willingly.
Some, like Northwest, provided as much as a year's worth of passenger
records, which typically include names, addresses, travel destinations and
credit card numbers.
"There was no reluctance on the part of anybody," added the senior FBI
official, who said bureau rules required him to speak anonymously.
The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a "course
of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed.
Airline industry officials said they could not remember another such
sweeping request. In the past, airlines have routinely provided data to
the FBI, but typically requests concerned the passengers on a single
flight or the travel patterns of an individual passenger.
"It was an extraordinary event," the bureau official said. "People wanted
to cooperate with the FBI because of the events that had just occurred --
and particularly the airlines, because airplanes were the tool by which
the attacks were carried out."
The FBI official said that the purpose of the data dragnet was to detect
attacks in the making through patterns in the travel records.
"They developed a model of what these hijackers were doing," he said, "and
went back and looked, based on that model, to see if we could find
associates, conspirators or other groups out there, particularly in the
time immediately following 9/11." There is no indication that the
passenger data produced any significant evidence about the plot or the
hijackers, the FBI official said.
The sharing of airline passenger data with the government has sparked some
of the most contentious conflicts underlying the uneasy balance between
privacy and security in the post-Sept. 11 world. Three airlines --
Northwest, American and JetBlue -- have acknowledged sharing weeks' or
months' worth of data with government researchers or contractors as part
of an effort to help develop new methods to spot terrorists.
But the disclosure that airlines had handed over such an enormous trove of
data directly to government criminal investigators -- 6,000 CD-ROMs full
of digital records from Northwest alone -- raised red flags among privacy
advocates, who played a role in uncovering the information transfer.
"It certainly takes the airline privacy issue to a new level, because it's
much more material than we've ever seen disclosed," said David Sobel, the
general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a high-tech
policy and advocacy group in Washington.
Tim Wagner, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the company had
"cooperated fully" with the FBI in the days and weeks following the
attacks, in which it lost two planes.
Northwest, in a written response to questions, said the release of data
was justified. "Northwest Airlines cooperated fully with the FBI in its
investigation, including the provision of passenger name records (PNRs)
for a 12-month period leading up to September 2001, as requested by the
FBI," the statement said.
"United, committed to assisting the FBI with its criminal investigation
into the 9/11 terrorist attacks, complied with the government's subpoenas
for information following the events of 9/11. United provided the FBI with
information in a manner that is consistent with our corporate policy on
privacy."
Delta Air Lines, the nation's third largest carrier, declined to comment
on whether it had given passenger records to federal investigators.
The first hint of the large-scale data hand-over came in January during
hearings of the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks. Andrew
Studdert, the former chief operating officer of United Airlines, testified
that United had set up extensive facilities for FBI agents in its
headquarters near Chicago and had made available "thousands of pages of
records."
But that disclosure was overlooked because of dramatic testimony the same
day from Gerard J. Arpey, American's chief executive, who played a tape of
a call from flight attendant Betty Ong to a reservations center from
aboard hijacked Flight 11.
Some records, including financial information and health records, have
strong privacy protection under federal and state laws, but the data
contained in passenger records do not fall under the protected areas, the
FBI said.

Post by Nigel Brooks
You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel and
hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI.................. is false.
Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively subpoena
travel and hotel reservations if that information was considered relevant
to an ongoing investigation.
There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and most
certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which would require
that companies providing such a service automatically provide that
information to the federal government for tracking purposes.
International travel into the United States has been tracked by the US
Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the Advanced
Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs Service put a
requirement on airlines arriving in the United States from foreign to
provide electronic advanced passenger manifest information as soon as the
aircraft left the foreign port or place. This information was then
checked through the various databases such as NCIC etc. It allowed the
federal government to provide the necessary arrival courtesies for those
passengers arriving in the United States who were the subject of
outstanding warrants, suspected smugglers etc.
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which tracks
all travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and not
have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[HMFIC~1369]

Nigel, You my friend can't speak or defend the Federal Government or the FBI
regarding anything. You, myself and everyone else in this America cannot say
what the Government is spying on or collecting data on. They most certainly
are.If you examine the FBI's past history, experience and attempts at Data
Collection going on since it's conception. We all know they are too. I used
to work on the CJFS in the 80's, and on today's scale that was small potatos
to both what the IRS and FBI are currently doing. CJFS was state of the art
at that time and it's the Criminal Justice Filing System and my scope was
the NY Tri-State area. With the New Drivers licsense requirements and the
pooling of that data on a Federal level.... You can't sit there and say they
aren't spying when they always have. Gee remember Hoover?

Don't mislead anyone. Hotel Reservations and Airline Manifests aren't secret
information. and following 9/11 and even up until today. I'm more upset over
Credit and Personal information. You can argue what you want but I was and
am right.

Las Vegas was forced to drop it's "What happens in Vegas Stay's in Vegas"
because the FBI requested Airline and Hotel Reservations for last year and
they certainly won't stop. There are no laws to prevent the data mining of
information. They don't need a name and SS, an address is fine or even just
a phone number. So they know ways around the laws as well as they know the
laws themselves.

Look you can dance the jig, but I know your full of it. RICO was only to be
used against Organized Crime and that now can mean any two people. Now it's
used against everyone. The Patriot Act is no different since there is no
pure legal definition of Terrorist, it too can be used against anyone and
has been used even last week against the stupid guy shooting laser at the
aircraft in NJ.

Bush has degraded Democracy and Freedom? The Freedom Bush speaks of is
Political, Fuck the People!

Post by Nigel Brooks
Yes - Not true.
Your post infers that all travel and hotel reservation information is
tracked by the FBI yet you provide one reference which proves that is not
the case. The reference you provided said " In the days following the
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's largest airlines,
including United, American and Northwest, turned over millions of
passenger records to the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday"
"The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a "course
of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed."
Your depiction of the patriot act as "allowing the government to obtain
credit records and library records secretly and without judicial oversight
(secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court order for
up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);"
conveniently overlooks the fact that federal agencies have had the ability
to do such things for years. An administrative subpoena is issued
"without judicial oversight" numerous federal agencies have been given
the authority to subpoena credit records, library records or any other
records which were considered relevant to an ongoing investigation. The
patriot act merely provided the FBI with similar authority in terrorism
investigations. Title III has always included a provision whereby a
wiretap could be initiated by an authorized federal agency in an emergency
without a court order - the act required that once the tap was initiated -
an application be made to a court without delay. The purpose was to allow
the government to initiate a wiretap in an emergency situation. The
patriot act extended that authority to the FBI in terrorism
investigations. In order to initiate a non consensual monitoring - there
has to be a specific law which authorizes it - there was no such
"emergency" provision for terrorist investigations until the passing of
the patriot act.
Your claim that section 321 gives foreign dictarships the power to seek
searches and seizures in the United States is misleading. Section 321
amended Title 28USC 1782 to clarify that the United States may seek
search warrants, pen/trap orders, and ECPA orders, in response to the
requests of foreign governments. The application process is still guided
by the constitutional safeguards which apply to all search warrants,
pen/trap trace orders, and ECPA orders. In other words they would have to
meet the same standards
But rather than regurgitate stuff you have found on the internet - can you
name one instance where you personally, or someone you know has been
adversely effected by the passing of the patriot act. Do you have
personal knowledge of anyone who has been the subject of a library
surveillance, wiretap, search without notification, etc etc?
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
Not true! First off United and Continenetal and American all supplied
private and personal flight information to the FBI and will continue to
do so.
Nigel, After the Terroristic Threat last New Years in Las Vegas the FBI
recieved all Flight and Hotel information from Las Vegas. Even when I
flew out there shortly after 9/11 all of my personal Flight and Hotel
information was gathered by the FBI. United even apologized!
They don't have to track travel and hotel reservations, they let the
hotels and airlines do that. They just get the data they want when they
want it.
Patriot Act ? You tell me one company that would not supply such
information and risk the wolves and the full rath of the
Feds?????...............
you are pretty funny!
a.. Further dismantles court review of surveillance, such as by
terminating court-approved limits on police spying on religious and
political activity (sec. 312), allowing the government to obtain credit
records and library records secretly and without judicial oversight
(secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court order for
up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);
b.. Allows government to operate in secret by authorizing secret arrests
(sec. 201), and imposing severe restrictions on the release of
information about the hazards to the community posed by chemical and
other plants (sec. 202);
c.. Further expands the reach of an already overbroad definition of
terrorism so that organizations engaged in civil disobedience are at risk
of government wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) asset seizure (secs. 428,
428), and their supporters could even risk losing their citizenship (sec.
501);
d.. Gives foreign dictatorships the power to seek searches and seizures
in the United States (sec. 321), and to extradite American citizens to
face trial in foreign courts (sec. 322), even if the United States Senate
has not approved a treaty with that government; and
e.. Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting terrorism
by stripping even lawful immigrants of the right to a fair deportation
hearing and stripping the federal courts of their power to correct
unlawful actions by the immigration authorities (secs. 503, 504).
Airlines gave U.S. vast data after Sept. 11
Millions of files surrendered by major carriers
John Schwartz, Micheline Maynard, New York Times
Saturday, May 1, 2004
a.. Printable Version
b.. Email This Article
In the days following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the
nation's largest airlines, including United, American and Northwest,
turned over millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law
enforcement officials acknowledged Friday.
A senior official with the FBI said the airlines had cooperated
willingly. Some, like Northwest, provided as much as a year's worth of
passenger records, which typically include names, addresses, travel
destinations and credit card numbers.
"There was no reluctance on the part of anybody," added the senior FBI
official, who said bureau rules required him to speak anonymously.
The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a
"course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed.
Airline industry officials said they could not remember another such
sweeping request. In the past, airlines have routinely provided data to
the FBI, but typically requests concerned the passengers on a single
flight or the travel patterns of an individual passenger.
"It was an extraordinary event," the bureau official said. "People wanted
to cooperate with the FBI because of the events that had just occurred --
and particularly the airlines, because airplanes were the tool by which
the attacks were carried out."
The FBI official said that the purpose of the data dragnet was to detect
attacks in the making through patterns in the travel records.
"They developed a model of what these hijackers were doing," he said,
"and went back and looked, based on that model, to see if we could find
associates, conspirators or other groups out there, particularly in the
time immediately following 9/11." There is no indication that the
passenger data produced any significant evidence about the plot or the
hijackers, the FBI official said.
The sharing of airline passenger data with the government has sparked
some of the most contentious conflicts underlying the uneasy balance
between privacy and security in the post-Sept. 11 world. Three
airlines -- Northwest, American and JetBlue -- have acknowledged sharing
weeks' or months' worth of data with government researchers or
contractors as part of an effort to help develop new methods to spot
terrorists.
But the disclosure that airlines had handed over such an enormous trove
of data directly to government criminal investigators -- 6,000 CD-ROMs
full of digital records from Northwest alone -- raised red flags among
privacy advocates, who played a role in uncovering the information
transfer.
"It certainly takes the airline privacy issue to a new level, because
it's much more material than we've ever seen disclosed," said David
Sobel, the general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information Center,
a high-tech policy and advocacy group in Washington.
Tim Wagner, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the company had
"cooperated fully" with the FBI in the days and weeks following the
attacks, in which it lost two planes.
Northwest, in a written response to questions, said the release of data
was justified. "Northwest Airlines cooperated fully with the FBI in its
investigation, including the provision of passenger name records (PNRs)
for a 12-month period leading up to September 2001, as requested by the
FBI," the statement said.
"United, committed to assisting the FBI with its criminal investigation
into the 9/11 terrorist attacks, complied with the government's subpoenas
for information following the events of 9/11. United provided the FBI
with information in a manner that is consistent with our corporate policy
on privacy."
Delta Air Lines, the nation's third largest carrier, declined to comment
on whether it had given passenger records to federal investigators.
The first hint of the large-scale data hand-over came in January during
hearings of the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks. Andrew
Studdert, the former chief operating officer of United Airlines,
testified that United had set up extensive facilities for FBI agents in
its headquarters near Chicago and had made available "thousands of pages
of records."
But that disclosure was overlooked because of dramatic testimony the same
day from Gerard J. Arpey, American's chief executive, who played a tape
of a call from flight attendant Betty Ong to a reservations center from
aboard hijacked Flight 11.
Some records, including financial information and health records, have
strong privacy protection under federal and state laws, but the data
contained in passenger records do not fall under the protected areas, the
FBI said.

Post by Nigel Brooks
You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel and
hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI.................. is false.
Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively subpoena
travel and hotel reservations if that information was considered
relevant to an ongoing investigation.
There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and most
certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which would
require that companies providing such a service automatically provide
that information to the federal government for tracking purposes.
International travel into the United States has been tracked by the US
Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the Advanced
Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs Service put a
requirement on airlines arriving in the United States from foreign to
provide electronic advanced passenger manifest information as soon as
the aircraft left the foreign port or place. This information was then
checked through the various databases such as NCIC etc. It allowed the
federal government to provide the necessary arrival courtesies for those
passengers arriving in the United States who were the subject of
outstanding warrants, suspected smugglers etc.
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which tracks
all travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and not
have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[Nigel Brooks]

Post by HMFIC~1369
Nigel, You my friend can't speak or defend the Federal Government or the
FBI regarding anything. You, myself and everyone else in this America
cannot say what the Government is spying on or collecting data on. They
most certainly are.If you examine the FBI's past history, experience and
attempts at Data Collection going on since it's conception. We all know
they are too. I used to work on the CJFS in the 80's, and on today's scale
that was small potatos to both what the IRS and FBI are currently doing.
CJFS was state of the art at that time and it's the Criminal Justice
Filing System and my scope was the NY Tri-State area. With the New Drivers
licsense requirements and the pooling of that data on a Federal level....
You can't sit there and say they aren't spying when they always have. Gee
remember Hoover?

I certainly can speak from experience.

What is the IRS doing?

And what are you talking about "New drivers license requirements and the
pooling of that data on a federal level?
You might be interested to know that any bonafide law enforcement agency has
had the ability to query drivers license information from the various State
DMV bureaus for over 30 years through a system called NLETS. NLETS is a
data link which links any law enforcement organization to the various State
and local agency criminal data base and other data bases. Using NLETS all
vehicles registed to you, your drivers license information and any other
information (in california any guns you have purchased in the State) are
immediately and instantly accessible.

Post by HMFIC~1369
Don't mislead anyone. Hotel Reservations and Airline Manifests aren't
secret information. and following 9/11 and even up until today. I'm more
upset over Credit and Personal information. You can argue what you want
but I was and am right.

Who say's they are secret? Hotel reservations and airline manifests are the
property of the record keeper - you have no privacy right in those records
for they are not yours. A subpoena or other legal process has always been
available to get those kinds of records and your claim that the FBI is
actually maintaining those records is tripe.

Your credit information and any other information concerning you is
available to anyone who wishes to pay for it or subscribe to one of the
credit reporting agencies. Law enforcement is restricted more than the
public in obtaining that information under the Right to Financial Privacy
Act. Furthermore the RTFPA has a notification requirement in it.

Post by HMFIC~1369
Las Vegas was forced to drop it's "What happens in Vegas Stay's in Vegas"
because the FBI requested Airline and Hotel Reservations for last year and
they certainly won't stop. There are no laws to prevent the data mining of
information. They don't need a name and SS, an address is fine or even
just a phone number. So they know ways around the laws as well as they
know the laws themselves.
Look you can dance the jig, but I know your full of it. RICO was only to
be used against Organized Crime and that now can mean any two people. Now
it's used against everyone. The Patriot Act is no different since there is
no pure legal definition of Terrorist, it too can be used against anyone
and has been used even last week against the stupid guy shooting laser at
the aircraft in NJ.

RICO was enacted in the early 70's and most certainly can be used against
anyone engaging in what is defined in the statute as "Organized Crime" - it
was never mean't to be restricted to Don Corleone, and has rightfully been
used to target anyone who is engaged in Racketeer Influenced Corrupt
Organizations - just as has the CCE statute.

Post by HMFIC~1369
Bush has degraded Democracy and Freedom? The Freedom Bush speaks of is
Political, Fuck the People!

So who do you know personally who has been
(1) locked up in a gulag
(2) imprisoned without due process
(3) had their library privileges investigated
(4)had their financial affairs subjected to investigation

Let's face it - if in fact the government of the United States was as you
claim - your privilege to post in this forum would be monitored, your mail
would be covered, you communications would be intercepted, and your access
to the internet would be curtailed.

That fact that none of this has happened is proof of your paranoia.

Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
Yes - Not true.
Your post infers that all travel and hotel reservation information is
tracked by the FBI yet you provide one reference which proves that is not
the case. The reference you provided said " In the days following the
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's largest airlines,
including United, American and Northwest, turned over millions of
passenger records to the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday"
"The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a
"course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed."
Your depiction of the patriot act as "allowing the government to obtain
credit records and library records secretly and without judicial
oversight (secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court
order for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);"
conveniently overlooks the fact that federal agencies have had the
ability to do such things for years. An administrative subpoena is
issued "without judicial oversight" numerous federal agencies have been
given the authority to subpoena credit records, library records or any
other records which were considered relevant to an ongoing investigation.
The patriot act merely provided the FBI with similar authority in
terrorism investigations. Title III has always included a provision
whereby a wiretap could be initiated by an authorized federal agency in
an emergency without a court order - the act required that once the tap
was initiated - an application be made to a court without delay. The
purpose was to allow the government to initiate a wiretap in an emergency
situation. The patriot act extended that authority to the FBI in
terrorism investigations. In order to initiate a non consensual
monitoring - there has to be a specific law which authorizes it - there
was no such "emergency" provision for terrorist investigations until the
passing of the patriot act.
Your claim that section 321 gives foreign dictarships the power to seek
searches and seizures in the United States is misleading. Section 321
amended Title 28USC 1782 to clarify that the United States may seek
search warrants, pen/trap orders, and ECPA orders, in response to the
requests of foreign governments. The application process is still
guided by the constitutional safeguards which apply to all search
warrants, pen/trap trace orders, and ECPA orders. In other words they
would have to meet the same standards
But rather than regurgitate stuff you have found on the internet - can
you name one instance where you personally, or someone you know has been
adversely effected by the passing of the patriot act. Do you have
personal knowledge of anyone who has been the subject of a library
surveillance, wiretap, search without notification, etc etc?
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
Not true! First off United and Continenetal and American all supplied
private and personal flight information to the FBI and will continue to
do so.
Nigel, After the Terroristic Threat last New Years in Las Vegas the FBI
recieved all Flight and Hotel information from Las Vegas. Even when I
flew out there shortly after 9/11 all of my personal Flight and Hotel
information was gathered by the FBI. United even apologized!
They don't have to track travel and hotel reservations, they let the
hotels and airlines do that. They just get the data they want when they
want it.
Patriot Act ? You tell me one company that would not supply such
information and risk the wolves and the full rath of the
Feds?????...............
you are pretty funny!
a.. Further dismantles court review of surveillance, such as by
terminating court-approved limits on police spying on religious and
political activity (sec. 312), allowing the government to obtain credit
records and library records secretly and without judicial oversight
(secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court order
for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);
b.. Allows government to operate in secret by authorizing secret
arrests (sec. 201), and imposing severe restrictions on the release of
information about the hazards to the community posed by chemical and
other plants (sec. 202);
c.. Further expands the reach of an already overbroad definition of
terrorism so that organizations engaged in civil disobedience are at
risk of government wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) asset seizure (secs.
428, 428), and their supporters could even risk losing their citizenship
(sec. 501);
d.. Gives foreign dictatorships the power to seek searches and seizures
in the United States (sec. 321), and to extradite American citizens to
face trial in foreign courts (sec. 322), even if the United States
Senate has not approved a treaty with that government; and
e.. Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting terrorism
by stripping even lawful immigrants of the right to a fair deportation
hearing and stripping the federal courts of their power to correct
unlawful actions by the immigration authorities (secs. 503, 504).
Airlines gave U.S. vast data after Sept. 11
Millions of files surrendered by major carriers
John Schwartz, Micheline Maynard, New York Times
Saturday, May 1, 2004
a.. Printable Version
b.. Email This Article
In the days following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the
nation's largest airlines, including United, American and Northwest,
turned over millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law
enforcement officials acknowledged Friday.
A senior official with the FBI said the airlines had cooperated
willingly. Some, like Northwest, provided as much as a year's worth of
passenger records, which typically include names, addresses, travel
destinations and credit card numbers.
"There was no reluctance on the part of anybody," added the senior FBI
official, who said bureau rules required him to speak anonymously.
The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a
"course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed.
Airline industry officials said they could not remember another such
sweeping request. In the past, airlines have routinely provided data to
the FBI, but typically requests concerned the passengers on a single
flight or the travel patterns of an individual passenger.
"It was an extraordinary event," the bureau official said. "People
wanted to cooperate with the FBI because of the events that had just
occurred -- and particularly the airlines, because airplanes were the
tool by which the attacks were carried out."
The FBI official said that the purpose of the data dragnet was to detect
attacks in the making through patterns in the travel records.
"They developed a model of what these hijackers were doing," he said,
"and went back and looked, based on that model, to see if we could find
associates, conspirators or other groups out there, particularly in the
time immediately following 9/11." There is no indication that the
passenger data produced any significant evidence about the plot or the
hijackers, the FBI official said.
The sharing of airline passenger data with the government has sparked
some of the most contentious conflicts underlying the uneasy balance
between privacy and security in the post-Sept. 11 world. Three
airlines -- Northwest, American and JetBlue -- have acknowledged
sharing weeks' or months' worth of data with government researchers or
contractors as part of an effort to help develop new methods to spot
terrorists.
But the disclosure that airlines had handed over such an enormous trove
of data directly to government criminal investigators -- 6,000 CD-ROMs
full of digital records from Northwest alone -- raised red flags among
privacy advocates, who played a role in uncovering the information
transfer.
"It certainly takes the airline privacy issue to a new level, because
it's much more material than we've ever seen disclosed," said David
Sobel, the general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, a high-tech policy and advocacy group in Washington.
Tim Wagner, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the company had
"cooperated fully" with the FBI in the days and weeks following the
attacks, in which it lost two planes.
Northwest, in a written response to questions, said the release of data
was justified. "Northwest Airlines cooperated fully with the FBI in its
investigation, including the provision of passenger name records (PNRs)
for a 12-month period leading up to September 2001, as requested by the
FBI," the statement said.
"United, committed to assisting the FBI with its criminal investigation
into the 9/11 terrorist attacks, complied with the government's
subpoenas for information following the events of 9/11. United provided
the FBI with information in a manner that is consistent with our
corporate policy on privacy."
Delta Air Lines, the nation's third largest carrier, declined to comment
on whether it had given passenger records to federal investigators.
The first hint of the large-scale data hand-over came in January during
hearings of the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks. Andrew
Studdert, the former chief operating officer of United Airlines,
testified that United had set up extensive facilities for FBI agents in
its headquarters near Chicago and had made available "thousands of pages
of records."
But that disclosure was overlooked because of dramatic testimony the
same day from Gerard J. Arpey, American's chief executive, who played a
tape of a call from flight attendant Betty Ong to a reservations center
from aboard hijacked Flight 11.
Some records, including financial information and health records, have
strong privacy protection under federal and state laws, but the data
contained in passenger records do not fall under the protected areas,
the FBI said.

Post by Nigel Brooks
You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel
and hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI.................. is
false.
Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively subpoena
travel and hotel reservations if that information was considered
relevant to an ongoing investigation.
There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and most
certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which would
require that companies providing such a service automatically provide
that information to the federal government for tracking purposes.
International travel into the United States has been tracked by the US
Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the Advanced
Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs Service put a
requirement on airlines arriving in the United States from foreign to
provide electronic advanced passenger manifest information as soon as
the aircraft left the foreign port or place. This information was then
checked through the various databases such as NCIC etc. It allowed the
federal government to provide the necessary arrival courtesies for
those passengers arriving in the United States who were the subject of
outstanding warrants, suspected smugglers etc.
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which
tracks all travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and not
have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[HMFIC~1369]

Post by Nigel Brooks
So who do you know personally who has been
(1) locked up in a gulag
(2) imprisoned without due process
(3) had their library privileges investigated
(4)had their financial affairs subjected to investigation
Let's face it - if in fact the government of the United States was as you
claim - your privilege to post in this forum would be monitored, your mail
would be covered, you communications would be intercepted, and your access
to the internet would be curtailed.

And the NG's aren't monitored? They are even the CIA does it! You know they
would never curtail my access, until after they shot me in the head......
I know many people killed on 9/11.
I love due process. Guilty until proven innocent. They do lock you up and
they don't have to post bail. You know that under civil charges a Judge can
keep ANYONE in prison for as long as that Judge wants. Without any due
process.
and the answer is yes.

You aren't advised if your library privileges are investigated, or any other
media or data and now even your own home is no longer off limits.

I know several multinationals who have both been investigated due to
investments and prohibited from doing investments in the United States even
though no crime had been committed. Most of this has been from the Patriot
Acts reach into the Financial Industry..

I'm not paranoid, I just know that The American Government should be focused
on America and not spreading Freedom and Democracy around the world, they
don't protect it here! This Government should be focused on WHAT it is doing
and should be doing in making America the Best, and not what the people are
doing or having abortions or purchasing guns. or even smoking! Maybe 9/11
would never have happened if Freeh focused on his job and not on Clintons
BJ! Make sure your shit is in one bag before telling everyone else to get it
in one bag too.

During the 60's and 70's John Lennon and many popular icons all had secret
FBI files on them, and they called them paranoid too.

Problem is there are more instances where the Fed's have overstepped their
bounds then not.

But don't change the subject, you know they spy and always have.

Post by Nigel Brooks
That fact that none of this has happened is proof of your paranoia.
Nigel Brooks

Post by Nigel Brooks
Yes - Not true.
Your post infers that all travel and hotel reservation information is
tracked by the FBI yet you provide one reference which proves that is
not the case. The reference you provided said " In the days following
the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's largest airlines,
including United, American and Northwest, turned over millions of
passenger records to the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday"
"The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a
"course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed."
Your depiction of the patriot act as "allowing the government to obtain
credit records and library records secretly and without judicial
oversight (secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a
court order for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);"
conveniently overlooks the fact that federal agencies have had the
ability to do such things for years. An administrative subpoena is
issued "without judicial oversight" numerous federal agencies have been
given the authority to subpoena credit records, library records or any
other records which were considered relevant to an ongoing
investigation. The patriot act merely provided the FBI with similar
authority in terrorism investigations. Title III has always included a
provision whereby a wiretap could be initiated by an authorized federal
agency in an emergency without a court order - the act required that
once the tap was initiated - an application be made to a court without
delay. The purpose was to allow the government to initiate a wiretap in
an emergency situation. The patriot act extended that authority to the
FBI in terrorism investigations. In order to initiate a non consensual
monitoring - there has to be a specific law which authorizes it - there
was no such "emergency" provision for terrorist investigations until the
passing of the patriot act.
Your claim that section 321 gives foreign dictarships the power to seek
searches and seizures in the United States is misleading. Section 321
amended Title 28USC 1782 to clarify that the United States may seek
search warrants, pen/trap orders, and ECPA orders, in response to the
requests of foreign governments. The application process is still
guided by the constitutional safeguards which apply to all search
warrants, pen/trap trace orders, and ECPA orders. In other words they
would have to meet the same standards
But rather than regurgitate stuff you have found on the internet - can
you name one instance where you personally, or someone you know has
been adversely effected by the passing of the patriot act. Do you have
personal knowledge of anyone who has been the subject of a library
surveillance, wiretap, search without notification, etc etc?
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
Not true! First off United and Continenetal and American all supplied
private and personal flight information to the FBI and will continue to
do so.
Nigel, After the Terroristic Threat last New Years in Las Vegas the FBI
recieved all Flight and Hotel information from Las Vegas. Even when I
flew out there shortly after 9/11 all of my personal Flight and Hotel
information was gathered by the FBI. United even apologized!
They don't have to track travel and hotel reservations, they let the
hotels and airlines do that. They just get the data they want when they
want it.
Patriot Act ? You tell me one company that would not supply such
information and risk the wolves and the full rath of the
Feds?????...............
you are pretty funny!
a.. Further dismantles court review of surveillance, such as by
terminating court-approved limits on police spying on religious and
political activity (sec. 312), allowing the government to obtain credit
records and library records secretly and without judicial oversight
(secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court order
for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);
b.. Allows government to operate in secret by authorizing secret
arrests (sec. 201), and imposing severe restrictions on the release of
information about the hazards to the community posed by chemical and
other plants (sec. 202);
c.. Further expands the reach of an already overbroad definition of
terrorism so that organizations engaged in civil disobedience are at
risk of government wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) asset seizure (secs.
428, 428), and their supporters could even risk losing their
citizenship (sec. 501);
d.. Gives foreign dictatorships the power to seek searches and
seizures in the United States (sec. 321), and to extradite American
citizens to face trial in foreign courts (sec. 322), even if the United
States Senate has not approved a treaty with that government; and
e.. Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting
terrorism by stripping even lawful immigrants of the right to a fair
deportation hearing and stripping the federal courts of their power to
correct unlawful actions by the immigration authorities (secs. 503,
504).
Airlines gave U.S. vast data after Sept. 11
Millions of files surrendered by major carriers
John Schwartz, Micheline Maynard, New York Times
Saturday, May 1, 2004
a.. Printable Version
b.. Email This Article
In the days following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the
nation's largest airlines, including United, American and Northwest,
turned over millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law
enforcement officials acknowledged Friday.
A senior official with the FBI said the airlines had cooperated
willingly. Some, like Northwest, provided as much as a year's worth of
passenger records, which typically include names, addresses, travel
destinations and credit card numbers.
"There was no reluctance on the part of anybody," added the senior FBI
official, who said bureau rules required him to speak anonymously.
The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a
"course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed.
Airline industry officials said they could not remember another such
sweeping request. In the past, airlines have routinely provided data to
the FBI, but typically requests concerned the passengers on a single
flight or the travel patterns of an individual passenger.
"It was an extraordinary event," the bureau official said. "People
wanted to cooperate with the FBI because of the events that had just
occurred -- and particularly the airlines, because airplanes were the
tool by which the attacks were carried out."
The FBI official said that the purpose of the data dragnet was to
detect attacks in the making through patterns in the travel records.
"They developed a model of what these hijackers were doing," he said,
"and went back and looked, based on that model, to see if we could find
associates, conspirators or other groups out there, particularly in the
time immediately following 9/11." There is no indication that the
passenger data produced any significant evidence about the plot or the
hijackers, the FBI official said.
The sharing of airline passenger data with the government has sparked
some of the most contentious conflicts underlying the uneasy balance
between privacy and security in the post-Sept. 11 world. Three
airlines -- Northwest, American and JetBlue -- have acknowledged
sharing weeks' or months' worth of data with government researchers or
contractors as part of an effort to help develop new methods to spot
terrorists.
But the disclosure that airlines had handed over such an enormous trove
of data directly to government criminal investigators -- 6,000 CD-ROMs
full of digital records from Northwest alone -- raised red flags among
privacy advocates, who played a role in uncovering the information
transfer.
"It certainly takes the airline privacy issue to a new level, because
it's much more material than we've ever seen disclosed," said David
Sobel, the general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, a high-tech policy and advocacy group in Washington.
Tim Wagner, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the company had
"cooperated fully" with the FBI in the days and weeks following the
attacks, in which it lost two planes.
Northwest, in a written response to questions, said the release of data
was justified. "Northwest Airlines cooperated fully with the FBI in its
investigation, including the provision of passenger name records (PNRs)
for a 12-month period leading up to September 2001, as requested by the
FBI," the statement said.
"United, committed to assisting the FBI with its criminal investigation
into the 9/11 terrorist attacks, complied with the government's
subpoenas for information following the events of 9/11. United provided
the FBI with information in a manner that is consistent with our
corporate policy on privacy."
Delta Air Lines, the nation's third largest carrier, declined to
comment on whether it had given passenger records to federal
investigators.
The first hint of the large-scale data hand-over came in January during
hearings of the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks. Andrew
Studdert, the former chief operating officer of United Airlines,
testified that United had set up extensive facilities for FBI agents in
its headquarters near Chicago and had made available "thousands of
pages of records."
But that disclosure was overlooked because of dramatic testimony the
same day from Gerard J. Arpey, American's chief executive, who played a
tape of a call from flight attendant Betty Ong to a reservations center
from aboard hijacked Flight 11.
Some records, including financial information and health records, have
strong privacy protection under federal and state laws, but the data
contained in passenger records do not fall under the protected areas,
the FBI said.

Post by Nigel Brooks
You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel
and hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI.................. is
false.
Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively
subpoena travel and hotel reservations if that information was
considered relevant to an ongoing investigation.
There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and
most certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which would
require that companies providing such a service automatically provide
that information to the federal government for tracking purposes.
International travel into the United States has been tracked by the US
Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the
Advanced Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs Service
put a requirement on airlines arriving in the United States from
foreign to provide electronic advanced passenger manifest information
as soon as the aircraft left the foreign port or place. This
information was then checked through the various databases such as
NCIC etc. It allowed the federal government to provide the necessary
arrival courtesies for those passengers arriving in the United States
who were the subject of outstanding warrants, suspected smugglers etc.
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which
tracks all travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and
not have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[Nigel Brooks]

Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
So who do you know personally who has been
(1) locked up in a gulag
(2) imprisoned without due process
(3) had their library privileges investigated
(4)had their financial affairs subjected to investigation
Let's face it - if in fact the government of the United States was as you
claim - your privilege to post in this forum would be monitored, your
mail would be covered, you communications would be intercepted, and your
access to the internet would be curtailed.

And the NG's aren't monitored? They are even the CIA does it! You know
they would never curtail my access, until after they shot me in the
head......

Actually old chap - internet monitoring and other types of like
eavesdropping is within the purview of the NSA.

Post by HMFIC~1369
I know many people killed on 9/11.
I love due process. Guilty until proven innocent. They do lock you up and
they don't have to post bail. You know that under civil charges a Judge
can keep ANYONE in prison for as long as that Judge wants. Without any due
process.
and the answer is yes.

Well there ya go again dontcha? The answer is NO. The only way that a
person can be incarcerated by a judge is is they are subpoened before a
Grand Jury, given use immunity and refuse to answer the questions of the
Grand Jury. The length of time the person stays in jail is for the period
that the particular Grand Jury is empanelled for. There is still due
process and the decision can always be appealed through the appellate
courts. The provisions for not authorizing bond have been around since at
least 1987 when the overhaul of the federal criminal system authorized such
things. The terms Danger to the Community and Presumed Risk of flight were
made applicable to certain crimes.

Post by HMFIC~1369
You aren't advised if your library privileges are investigated, or any
other media or data and now even your own home is no longer off limits.
I know several multinationals who have both been investigated due to
investments and prohibited from doing investments in the United States
even though no crime had been committed. Most of this has been from the
Patriot Acts reach into the Financial Industry..

Sure you do.

Post by HMFIC~1369
I'm not paranoid, I just know that The American Government should be
focused on America and not spreading Freedom and Democracy around the
world, they don't protect it here! This Government should be focused on
WHAT it is doing and should be doing in making America the Best, and not
what the people are doing or having abortions or purchasing guns. or even
smoking! Maybe 9/11 would never have happened if Freeh focused on his job
and not on Clintons BJ! Make sure your shit is in one bag before telling
everyone else to get it in one bag too.
During the 60's and 70's John Lennon and many popular icons all had secret
FBI files on them, and they called them paranoid too.
Problem is there are more instances where the Fed's have overstepped their
bounds then not.
But don't change the subject, you know they spy and always have.

Well as I said - check under your bed.

Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
That fact that none of this has happened is proof of your paranoia.
Nigel Brooks

Post by Nigel Brooks
Yes - Not true.
Your post infers that all travel and hotel reservation information is
tracked by the FBI yet you provide one reference which proves that is
not the case. The reference you provided said " In the days following
the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's largest airlines,
including United, American and Northwest, turned over millions of
passenger records to the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday"
"The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a
"course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were followed."
Your depiction of the patriot act as "allowing the government to obtain
credit records and library records secretly and without judicial
oversight (secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a
court order for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);"
conveniently overlooks the fact that federal agencies have had the
ability to do such things for years. An administrative subpoena is
issued "without judicial oversight" numerous federal agencies have
been given the authority to subpoena credit records, library records or
any other records which were considered relevant to an ongoing
investigation. The patriot act merely provided the FBI with similar
authority in terrorism investigations. Title III has always included a
provision whereby a wiretap could be initiated by an authorized federal
agency in an emergency without a court order - the act required that
once the tap was initiated - an application be made to a court without
delay. The purpose was to allow the government to initiate a wiretap
in an emergency situation. The patriot act extended that authority to
the FBI in terrorism investigations. In order to initiate a non
consensual monitoring - there has to be a specific law which authorizes
it - there was no such "emergency" provision for terrorist
investigations until the passing of the patriot act.
Your claim that section 321 gives foreign dictarships the power to seek
searches and seizures in the United States is misleading. Section 321
amended Title 28USC 1782 to clarify that the United States may seek
search warrants, pen/trap orders, and ECPA orders, in response to the
requests of foreign governments. The application process is still
guided by the constitutional safeguards which apply to all search
warrants, pen/trap trace orders, and ECPA orders. In other words they
would have to meet the same standards
But rather than regurgitate stuff you have found on the internet - can
you name one instance where you personally, or someone you know has
been adversely effected by the passing of the patriot act. Do you have
personal knowledge of anyone who has been the subject of a library
surveillance, wiretap, search without notification, etc etc?
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
Not true! First off United and Continenetal and American all supplied
private and personal flight information to the FBI and will continue
to do so.
Nigel, After the Terroristic Threat last New Years in Las Vegas the
FBI recieved all Flight and Hotel information from Las Vegas. Even
when I flew out there shortly after 9/11 all of my personal Flight and
Hotel information was gathered by the FBI. United even apologized!
They don't have to track travel and hotel reservations, they let the
hotels and airlines do that. They just get the data they want when
they want it.
Patriot Act ? You tell me one company that would not supply such
information and risk the wolves and the full rath of the
Feds?????...............
you are pretty funny!
a.. Further dismantles court review of surveillance, such as by
terminating court-approved limits on police spying on religious and
political activity (sec. 312), allowing the government to obtain
credit records and library records secretly and without judicial
oversight (secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a
court order for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);
b.. Allows government to operate in secret by authorizing secret
arrests (sec. 201), and imposing severe restrictions on the release of
information about the hazards to the community posed by chemical and
other plants (sec. 202);
c.. Further expands the reach of an already overbroad definition of
terrorism so that organizations engaged in civil disobedience are at
risk of government wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) asset seizure (secs.
428, 428), and their supporters could even risk losing their
citizenship (sec. 501);
d.. Gives foreign dictatorships the power to seek searches and
seizures in the United States (sec. 321), and to extradite American
citizens to face trial in foreign courts (sec. 322), even if the
United States Senate has not approved a treaty with that government;
and
e.. Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting
terrorism by stripping even lawful immigrants of the right to a fair
deportation hearing and stripping the federal courts of their power to
correct unlawful actions by the immigration authorities (secs. 503,
504).
Airlines gave U.S. vast data after Sept. 11
Millions of files surrendered by major carriers
John Schwartz, Micheline Maynard, New York Times
Saturday, May 1, 2004
a.. Printable Version
b.. Email This Article
In the days following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the
nation's largest airlines, including United, American and Northwest,
turned over millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law
enforcement officials acknowledged Friday.
A senior official with the FBI said the airlines had cooperated
willingly. Some, like Northwest, provided as much as a year's worth of
passenger records, which typically include names, addresses, travel
destinations and credit card numbers.
"There was no reluctance on the part of anybody," added the senior FBI
official, who said bureau rules required him to speak anonymously.
The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests
had been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by
law or because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but
as a "course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were
followed.
Airline industry officials said they could not remember another such
sweeping request. In the past, airlines have routinely provided data
to the FBI, but typically requests concerned the passengers on a
single flight or the travel patterns of an individual passenger.
"It was an extraordinary event," the bureau official said. "People
wanted to cooperate with the FBI because of the events that had just
occurred -- and particularly the airlines, because airplanes were the
tool by which the attacks were carried out."
The FBI official said that the purpose of the data dragnet was to
detect attacks in the making through patterns in the travel records.
"They developed a model of what these hijackers were doing," he said,
"and went back and looked, based on that model, to see if we could
find associates, conspirators or other groups out there, particularly
in the time immediately following 9/11." There is no indication that
the passenger data produced any significant evidence about the plot or
the hijackers, the FBI official said.
The sharing of airline passenger data with the government has sparked
some of the most contentious conflicts underlying the uneasy balance
between privacy and security in the post-Sept. 11 world. Three
airlines -- Northwest, American and JetBlue -- have acknowledged
sharing weeks' or months' worth of data with government researchers or
contractors as part of an effort to help develop new methods to spot
terrorists.
But the disclosure that airlines had handed over such an enormous
trove of data directly to government criminal investigators -- 6,000
CD-ROMs full of digital records from Northwest alone -- raised red
flags among privacy advocates, who played a role in uncovering the
information transfer.
"It certainly takes the airline privacy issue to a new level, because
it's much more material than we've ever seen disclosed," said David
Sobel, the general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, a high-tech policy and advocacy group in Washington.
Tim Wagner, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the company had
"cooperated fully" with the FBI in the days and weeks following the
attacks, in which it lost two planes.
Northwest, in a written response to questions, said the release of
data was justified. "Northwest Airlines cooperated fully with the FBI
in its investigation, including the provision of passenger name
records (PNRs) for a 12-month period leading up to September 2001, as
requested by the FBI," the statement said.
"United, committed to assisting the FBI with its criminal
investigation into the 9/11 terrorist attacks, complied with the
government's subpoenas for information following the events of 9/11.
United provided the FBI with information in a manner that is
consistent with our corporate policy on privacy."
Delta Air Lines, the nation's third largest carrier, declined to
comment on whether it had given passenger records to federal
investigators.
The first hint of the large-scale data hand-over came in January
during hearings of the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks.
Andrew Studdert, the former chief operating officer of United
Airlines, testified that United had set up extensive facilities for
FBI agents in its headquarters near Chicago and had made available
"thousands of pages of records."
But that disclosure was overlooked because of dramatic testimony the
same day from Gerard J. Arpey, American's chief executive, who played
a tape of a call from flight attendant Betty Ong to a reservations
center from aboard hijacked Flight 11.
Some records, including financial information and health records, have
strong privacy protection under federal and state laws, but the data
contained in passenger records do not fall under the protected areas,
the FBI said.

Post by Nigel Brooks
You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel
and hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI..................
is false.
Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively
subpoena travel and hotel reservations if that information was
considered relevant to an ongoing investigation.
There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and
most certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which
would require that companies providing such a service automatically
provide that information to the federal government for tracking
purposes.
International travel into the United States has been tracked by the
US Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the
Advanced Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs Service
put a requirement on airlines arriving in the United States from
foreign to provide electronic advanced passenger manifest information
as soon as the aircraft left the foreign port or place. This
information was then checked through the various databases such as
NCIC etc. It allowed the federal government to provide the necessary
arrival courtesies for those passengers arriving in the United States
who were the subject of outstanding warrants, suspected smugglers etc.
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which
tracks all travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and
not have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[unknown]

I'm fully aware of the NSA. You know as I do though that the FBI loves
attention, this wouldn't be the first time anyone has heard of operations
being duplicated. I would also think that there is more of a open door
policy between factions snyway......

I don't look under the bed to dusty...... I keep a Mark 4 under my pillow!

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
So who do you know personally who has been
(1) locked up in a gulag
(2) imprisoned without due process
(3) had their library privileges investigated
(4)had their financial affairs subjected to investigation
Let's face it - if in fact the government of the United States was as
you claim - your privilege to post in this forum would be monitored,
your mail would be covered, you communications would be intercepted, and
your access to the internet would be curtailed.

And the NG's aren't monitored? They are even the CIA does it! You know
they would never curtail my access, until after they shot me in the
head......

Actually old chap - internet monitoring and other types of like
eavesdropping is within the purview of the NSA.

Post by HMFIC~1369
I know many people killed on 9/11.
I love due process. Guilty until proven innocent. They do lock you up and
they don't have to post bail. You know that under civil charges a Judge
can keep ANYONE in prison for as long as that Judge wants. Without any
due process.
and the answer is yes.

Well there ya go again dontcha? The answer is NO. The only way that a
person can be incarcerated by a judge is is they are subpoened before a
Grand Jury, given use immunity and refuse to answer the questions of the
Grand Jury. The length of time the person stays in jail is for the period
that the particular Grand Jury is empanelled for. There is still due
process and the decision can always be appealed through the appellate
courts. The provisions for not authorizing bond have been around since at
least 1987 when the overhaul of the federal criminal system authorized
such things. The terms Danger to the Community and Presumed Risk of
flight were made applicable to certain crimes.

Post by HMFIC~1369
You aren't advised if your library privileges are investigated, or any
other media or data and now even your own home is no longer off limits.
I know several multinationals who have both been investigated due to
investments and prohibited from doing investments in the United States
even though no crime had been committed. Most of this has been from the
Patriot Acts reach into the Financial Industry..

Sure you do.

Post by HMFIC~1369
I'm not paranoid, I just know that The American Government should be
focused on America and not spreading Freedom and Democracy around the
world, they don't protect it here! This Government should be focused on
WHAT it is doing and should be doing in making America the Best, and not
what the people are doing or having abortions or purchasing guns. or even
smoking! Maybe 9/11 would never have happened if Freeh focused on his job
and not on Clintons BJ! Make sure your shit is in one bag before telling
everyone else to get it in one bag too.
During the 60's and 70's John Lennon and many popular icons all had
secret FBI files on them, and they called them paranoid too.
Problem is there are more instances where the Fed's have overstepped
their bounds then not.
But don't change the subject, you know they spy and always have.

Well as I said - check under your bed.

Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
That fact that none of this has happened is proof of your paranoia.
Nigel Brooks

Post by Nigel Brooks
Yes - Not true.
Your post infers that all travel and hotel reservation information is
tracked by the FBI yet you provide one reference which proves that is
not the case. The reference you provided said " In the days
following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's largest
airlines, including United, American and Northwest, turned over
millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday"
"The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests
had been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by
law or because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but
as a "course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were
followed."
Your depiction of the patriot act as "allowing the government to
obtain credit records and library records secretly and without
judicial oversight (secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps
without a court order for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack
(sec. 103);"
conveniently overlooks the fact that federal agencies have had the
ability to do such things for years. An administrative subpoena is
issued "without judicial oversight" numerous federal agencies have
been given the authority to subpoena credit records, library records
or any other records which were considered relevant to an ongoing
investigation. The patriot act merely provided the FBI with similar
authority in terrorism investigations. Title III has always included
a provision whereby a wiretap could be initiated by an authorized
federal agency in an emergency without a court order - the act
required that once the tap was initiated - an application be made to a
court without delay. The purpose was to allow the government to
initiate a wiretap in an emergency situation. The patriot act
extended that authority to the FBI in terrorism investigations. In
order to initiate a non consensual monitoring - there has to be a
specific law which authorizes it - there was no such "emergency"
provision for terrorist investigations until the passing of the
patriot act.
Your claim that section 321 gives foreign dictarships the power to
seek searches and seizures in the United States is misleading.
Section 321 amended Title 28USC 1782 to clarify that the United
States may seek search warrants, pen/trap orders, and ECPA orders, in
response to the requests of foreign governments. The application
process is still guided by the constitutional safeguards which apply
to all search warrants, pen/trap trace orders, and ECPA orders. In
other words they would have to meet the same standards
But rather than regurgitate stuff you have found on the internet - can
you name one instance where you personally, or someone you know has
been adversely effected by the passing of the patriot act. Do you
have personal knowledge of anyone who has been the subject of a
library surveillance, wiretap, search without notification, etc etc?
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
Not true! First off United and Continenetal and American all supplied
private and personal flight information to the FBI and will continue
to do so.
Nigel, After the Terroristic Threat last New Years in Las Vegas the
FBI recieved all Flight and Hotel information from Las Vegas. Even
when I flew out there shortly after 9/11 all of my personal Flight
and Hotel information was gathered by the FBI. United even
apologized!
They don't have to track travel and hotel reservations, they let the
hotels and airlines do that. They just get the data they want when
they want it.
Patriot Act ? You tell me one company that would not supply such
information and risk the wolves and the full rath of the
Feds?????...............
you are pretty funny!
a.. Further dismantles court review of surveillance, such as by
terminating court-approved limits on police spying on religious and
political activity (sec. 312), allowing the government to obtain
credit records and library records secretly and without judicial
oversight (secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a
court order for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);
b.. Allows government to operate in secret by authorizing secret
arrests (sec. 201), and imposing severe restrictions on the release
of information about the hazards to the community posed by chemical
and other plants (sec. 202);
c.. Further expands the reach of an already overbroad definition of
terrorism so that organizations engaged in civil disobedience are at
risk of government wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) asset seizure (secs.
428, 428), and their supporters could even risk losing their
citizenship (sec. 501);
d.. Gives foreign dictatorships the power to seek searches and
seizures in the United States (sec. 321), and to extradite American
citizens to face trial in foreign courts (sec. 322), even if the
United States Senate has not approved a treaty with that government;
and
e.. Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting
terrorism by stripping even lawful immigrants of the right to a fair
deportation hearing and stripping the federal courts of their power
to correct unlawful actions by the immigration authorities (secs.
503, 504).
Airlines gave U.S. vast data after Sept. 11
Millions of files surrendered by major carriers
John Schwartz, Micheline Maynard, New York Times
Saturday, May 1, 2004
a.. Printable Version
b.. Email This Article
In the days following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the
nation's largest airlines, including United, American and Northwest,
turned over millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law
enforcement officials acknowledged Friday.
A senior official with the FBI said the airlines had cooperated
willingly. Some, like Northwest, provided as much as a year's worth
of passenger records, which typically include names, addresses,
travel destinations and credit card numbers.
"There was no reluctance on the part of anybody," added the senior
FBI official, who said bureau rules required him to speak
anonymously.
The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests
had been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by
law or because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but
as a "course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were
followed.
Airline industry officials said they could not remember another such
sweeping request. In the past, airlines have routinely provided data
to the FBI, but typically requests concerned the passengers on a
single flight or the travel patterns of an individual passenger.
"It was an extraordinary event," the bureau official said. "People
wanted to cooperate with the FBI because of the events that had just
occurred -- and particularly the airlines, because airplanes were
the tool by which the attacks were carried out."
The FBI official said that the purpose of the data dragnet was to
detect attacks in the making through patterns in the travel records.
"They developed a model of what these hijackers were doing," he said,
"and went back and looked, based on that model, to see if we could
find associates, conspirators or other groups out there, particularly
in the time immediately following 9/11." There is no indication that
the passenger data produced any significant evidence about the plot
or the hijackers, the FBI official said.
The sharing of airline passenger data with the government has sparked
some of the most contentious conflicts underlying the uneasy balance
between privacy and security in the post-Sept. 11 world. Three
airlines -- Northwest, American and JetBlue -- have acknowledged
sharing weeks' or months' worth of data with government researchers
or contractors as part of an effort to help develop new methods to
spot terrorists.
But the disclosure that airlines had handed over such an enormous
trove of data directly to government criminal investigators -- 6,000
CD-ROMs full of digital records from Northwest alone -- raised red
flags among privacy advocates, who played a role in uncovering the
information transfer.
"It certainly takes the airline privacy issue to a new level, because
it's much more material than we've ever seen disclosed," said David
Sobel, the general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, a high-tech policy and advocacy group in Washington.
Tim Wagner, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the company had
"cooperated fully" with the FBI in the days and weeks following the
attacks, in which it lost two planes.
Northwest, in a written response to questions, said the release of
data was justified. "Northwest Airlines cooperated fully with the FBI
in its investigation, including the provision of passenger name
records (PNRs) for a 12-month period leading up to September 2001, as
requested by the FBI," the statement said.
"United, committed to assisting the FBI with its criminal
investigation into the 9/11 terrorist attacks, complied with the
government's subpoenas for information following the events of 9/11.
United provided the FBI with information in a manner that is
consistent with our corporate policy on privacy."
Delta Air Lines, the nation's third largest carrier, declined to
comment on whether it had given passenger records to federal
investigators.
The first hint of the large-scale data hand-over came in January
during hearings of the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks.
Andrew Studdert, the former chief operating officer of United
Airlines, testified that United had set up extensive facilities for
FBI agents in its headquarters near Chicago and had made available
"thousands of pages of records."
But that disclosure was overlooked because of dramatic testimony the
same day from Gerard J. Arpey, American's chief executive, who played
a tape of a call from flight attendant Betty Ong to a reservations
center from aboard hijacked Flight 11.
Some records, including financial information and health records,
have strong privacy protection under federal and state laws, but the
data contained in passenger records do not fall under the protected
areas, the FBI said.

Post by Nigel Brooks
You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel
and hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI..................
is false.
Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively
subpoena travel and hotel reservations if that information was
considered relevant to an ongoing investigation.
There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and
most certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which
would require that companies providing such a service automatically
provide that information to the federal government for tracking
purposes.
International travel into the United States has been tracked by the
US Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the
Advanced Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs
Service put a requirement on airlines arriving in the United States
from foreign to provide electronic advanced passenger manifest
information as soon as the aircraft left the foreign port or place.
This information was then checked through the various databases such
as NCIC etc. It allowed the federal government to provide the
necessary arrival courtesies for those passengers arriving in the
United States who were the subject of outstanding warrants,
suspected smugglers etc.
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which
tracks all travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and
not have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?

[HMFIC~1369]

Awhhh, like you would have anything coherent enough for me or anybody else
to discuss......

I got this guy KF'ed Nigel. Anyway, I ain't worried 'bout
no damn Mess skin's .
We got ''Deadly Donna'' there now !

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
Nigel, You my friend can't speak or defend the Federal Government or the
FBI regarding anything. You, myself and everyone else in this America
cannot say what the Government is spying on or collecting data on. They
most certainly are.If you examine the FBI's past history, experience and
attempts at Data Collection going on since it's conception. We all know
they are too. I used to work on the CJFS in the 80's, and on today's

scale

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
that was small potatos to both what the IRS and FBI are currently doing.
CJFS was state of the art at that time and it's the Criminal Justice
Filing System and my scope was the NY Tri-State area. With the New

Drivers

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
licsense requirements and the pooling of that data on a Federal

level....

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
You can't sit there and say they aren't spying when they always have.

Gee

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
remember Hoover?

I certainly can speak from experience.
What is the IRS doing?
And what are you talking about "New drivers license requirements and the
pooling of that data on a federal level?
You might be interested to know that any bonafide law enforcement agency

has

Post by Nigel Brooks
had the ability to query drivers license information from the various

State

Post by Nigel Brooks
DMV bureaus for over 30 years through a system called NLETS. NLETS is a
data link which links any law enforcement organization to the various

State

Post by Nigel Brooks
and local agency criminal data base and other data bases. Using NLETS all
vehicles registed to you, your drivers license information and any other
information (in california any guns you have purchased in the State) are
immediately and instantly accessible.

Post by HMFIC~1369
Don't mislead anyone. Hotel Reservations and Airline Manifests aren't
secret information. and following 9/11 and even up until today. I'm more
upset over Credit and Personal information. You can argue what you want
but I was and am right.

Who say's they are secret? Hotel reservations and airline manifests are

the

Post by Nigel Brooks
property of the record keeper - you have no privacy right in those records
for they are not yours. A subpoena or other legal process has always been
available to get those kinds of records and your claim that the FBI is
actually maintaining those records is tripe.
Your credit information and any other information concerning you is
available to anyone who wishes to pay for it or subscribe to one of the
credit reporting agencies. Law enforcement is restricted more than the
public in obtaining that information under the Right to Financial Privacy
Act. Furthermore the RTFPA has a notification requirement in it.

Post by HMFIC~1369
Las Vegas was forced to drop it's "What happens in Vegas Stay's in

Vegas"

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
because the FBI requested Airline and Hotel Reservations for last year

and

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they certainly won't stop. There are no laws to prevent the data mining

of

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Post by HMFIC~1369
information. They don't need a name and SS, an address is fine or even
just a phone number. So they know ways around the laws as well as they
know the laws themselves.
Look you can dance the jig, but I know your full of it. RICO was only to
be used against Organized Crime and that now can mean any two people.

Now

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
it's used against everyone. The Patriot Act is no different since there

is

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Post by HMFIC~1369
no pure legal definition of Terrorist, it too can be used against anyone
and has been used even last week against the stupid guy shooting laser

at

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Post by HMFIC~1369
the aircraft in NJ.

RICO was enacted in the early 70's and most certainly can be used against
anyone engaging in what is defined in the statute as "Organized Crime" -

it

Post by Nigel Brooks
was never mean't to be restricted to Don Corleone, and has rightfully been
used to target anyone who is engaged in Racketeer Influenced Corrupt
Organizations - just as has the CCE statute.

Post by HMFIC~1369
Bush has degraded Democracy and Freedom? The Freedom Bush speaks of is
Political, Fuck the People!

So who do you know personally who has been
(1) locked up in a gulag
(2) imprisoned without due process
(3) had their library privileges investigated
(4)had their financial affairs subjected to investigation
Let's face it - if in fact the government of the United States was as you
claim - your privilege to post in this forum would be monitored, your mail
would be covered, you communications would be intercepted, and your access
to the internet would be curtailed.
That fact that none of this has happened is proof of your paranoia.
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
Yes - Not true.
Your post infers that all travel and hotel reservation information is
tracked by the FBI yet you provide one reference which proves that is

not

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Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
the case. The reference you provided said " In the days following the
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the nation's largest airlines,
including United, American and Northwest, turned over millions of
passenger records to the FBI, airline and law enforcement
officials acknowledged Friday"
"The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests had
been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law or
because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a
"course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were

followed."

Post by Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
Your depiction of the patriot act as "allowing the government to obtain
credit records and library records secretly and without judicial
oversight (secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a

court

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order for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);"
conveniently overlooks the fact that federal agencies have had the
ability to do such things for years. An administrative subpoena is
issued "without judicial oversight" numerous federal agencies have

been

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given the authority to subpoena credit records, library records or any
other records which were considered relevant to an ongoing

investigation.

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The patriot act merely provided the FBI with similar authority in
terrorism investigations. Title III has always included a provision
whereby a wiretap could be initiated by an authorized federal agency in
an emergency without a court order - the act required that once the tap
was initiated - an application be made to a court without delay. The
purpose was to allow the government to initiate a wiretap in an

emergency

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Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
situation. The patriot act extended that authority to the FBI in
terrorism investigations. In order to initiate a non consensual
monitoring - there has to be a specific law which authorizes it - there
was no such "emergency" provision for terrorist investigations until

the

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Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
passing of the patriot act.
Your claim that section 321 gives foreign dictarships the power to seek
searches and seizures in the United States is misleading. Section 321
amended Title 28USC 1782 to clarify that the United States may seek
search warrants, pen/trap orders, and ECPA orders, in response to the
requests of foreign governments. The application process is still
guided by the constitutional safeguards which apply to all search
warrants, pen/trap trace orders, and ECPA orders. In other words they
would have to meet the same standards
But rather than regurgitate stuff you have found on the internet - can
you name one instance where you personally, or someone you know has

been

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Post by HMFIC~1369

Post by Nigel Brooks
adversely effected by the passing of the patriot act. Do you have
personal knowledge of anyone who has been the subject of a library
surveillance, wiretap, search without notification, etc etc?
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
Not true! First off United and Continenetal and American all supplied
private and personal flight information to the FBI and will continue

to

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do so.
Nigel, After the Terroristic Threat last New Years in Las Vegas the

FBI

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recieved all Flight and Hotel information from Las Vegas. Even when I
flew out there shortly after 9/11 all of my personal Flight and Hotel
information was gathered by the FBI. United even apologized!
They don't have to track travel and hotel reservations, they let the
hotels and airlines do that. They just get the data they want when

they

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want it.
Patriot Act ? You tell me one company that would not supply such
information and risk the wolves and the full rath of the
Feds?????...............
you are pretty funny!
a.. Further dismantles court review of surveillance, such as by
terminating court-approved limits on police spying on religious and
political activity (sec. 312), allowing the government to obtain

credit

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records and library records secretly and without judicial oversight
(secs. 126, 128, 129), and by allowing wiretaps without a court order
for up to 15 days following a terrorist attack (sec. 103);
b.. Allows government to operate in secret by authorizing secret
arrests (sec. 201), and imposing severe restrictions on the release of
information about the hazards to the community posed by chemical and
other plants (sec. 202);
c.. Further expands the reach of an already overbroad definition of
terrorism so that organizations engaged in civil disobedience are at
risk of government wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) asset seizure (secs.
428, 428), and their supporters could even risk losing their

citizenship

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(sec. 501);
d.. Gives foreign dictatorships the power to seek searches and

seizures

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in the United States (sec. 321), and to extradite American citizens to
face trial in foreign courts (sec. 322), even if the United States
Senate has not approved a treaty with that government; and
e.. Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting

terrorism

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by stripping even lawful immigrants of the right to a fair deportation
hearing and stripping the federal courts of their power to correct
unlawful actions by the immigration authorities (secs. 503, 504).
Airlines gave U.S. vast data after Sept. 11
Millions of files surrendered by major carriers
John Schwartz, Micheline Maynard, New York Times
Saturday, May 1, 2004
a.. Printable Version
b.. Email This Article
In the days following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, the
nation's largest airlines, including United, American and Northwest,
turned over millions of passenger records to the FBI, airline and law
enforcement officials acknowledged Friday.
A senior official with the FBI said the airlines had cooperated
willingly. Some, like Northwest, provided as much as a year's worth of
passenger records, which typically include names, addresses, travel
destinations and credit card numbers.
"There was no reluctance on the part of anybody," added the senior FBI
official, who said bureau rules required him to speak anonymously.
The official said that the requests had been made under the bureau's
general legal authority to investigate crimes and that the requests

had

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been accompanied by subpoena -- not because that was required by law

or

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because the bureau expected resistance from the airlines, but as a
"course of business" to ensure that all proper procedures were

followed.

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Airline industry officials said they could not remember another such
sweeping request. In the past, airlines have routinely provided data

to

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the FBI, but typically requests concerned the passengers on a single
flight or the travel patterns of an individual passenger.
"It was an extraordinary event," the bureau official said. "People
wanted to cooperate with the FBI because of the events that had just
occurred -- and particularly the airlines, because airplanes were the
tool by which the attacks were carried out."
The FBI official said that the purpose of the data dragnet was to

detect

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attacks in the making through patterns in the travel records.
"They developed a model of what these hijackers were doing," he said,
"and went back and looked, based on that model, to see if we could

find

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associates, conspirators or other groups out there, particularly in

the

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time immediately following 9/11." There is no indication that the
passenger data produced any significant evidence about the plot or the
hijackers, the FBI official said.
The sharing of airline passenger data with the government has sparked
some of the most contentious conflicts underlying the uneasy balance
between privacy and security in the post-Sept. 11 world. Three
airlines -- Northwest, American and JetBlue -- have acknowledged
sharing weeks' or months' worth of data with government researchers or
contractors as part of an effort to help develop new methods to spot
terrorists.
But the disclosure that airlines had handed over such an enormous

trove

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of data directly to government criminal investigators -- 6,000 CD-ROMs
full of digital records from Northwest alone -- raised red flags among
privacy advocates, who played a role in uncovering the information
transfer.
"It certainly takes the airline privacy issue to a new level, because
it's much more material than we've ever seen disclosed," said David
Sobel, the general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, a high-tech policy and advocacy group in Washington.
Tim Wagner, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the company had
"cooperated fully" with the FBI in the days and weeks following the
attacks, in which it lost two planes.
Northwest, in a written response to questions, said the release of

data

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was justified. "Northwest Airlines cooperated fully with the FBI in

its

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investigation, including the provision of passenger name records

(PNRs)

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for a 12-month period leading up to September 2001, as requested by

the

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FBI," the statement said.
"United, committed to assisting the FBI with its criminal

investigation

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into the 9/11 terrorist attacks, complied with the government's
subpoenas for information following the events of 9/11. United

provided

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the FBI with information in a manner that is consistent with our
corporate policy on privacy."
Delta Air Lines, the nation's third largest carrier, declined to

comment

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on whether it had given passenger records to federal investigators.
The first hint of the large-scale data hand-over came in January

during

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hearings of the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks. Andrew
Studdert, the former chief operating officer of United Airlines,
testified that United had set up extensive facilities for FBI agents

in

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its headquarters near Chicago and had made available "thousands of

pages

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of records."
But that disclosure was overlooked because of dramatic testimony the
same day from Gerard J. Arpey, American's chief executive, who played

a

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tape of a call from flight attendant Betty Ong to a reservations

center

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from aboard hijacked Flight 11.
Some records, including financial information and health records, have
strong privacy protection under federal and state laws, but the data
contained in passenger records do not fall under the protected areas,
the FBI said.

Post by Nigel Brooks
You might consider it "common knowledge" - but the claim "all travel
and hotel reservations are now tracked by the FBI..................

is

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false.
Law enforcement has always had the ability to administratively

subpoena

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travel and hotel reservations if that information was considered
relevant to an ongoing investigation.
There is no central data base of hotel and travel reservations and

most

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certainly there is no provision under the Patriot Act which would
require that companies providing such a service automatically provide
that information to the federal government for tracking purposes.
International travel into the United States has been tracked by the

US

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Customs Service for at least 30 years. With the advent of the

Advanced

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Passenger Information System in the 80's the Customs Service put a
requirement on airlines arriving in the United States from foreign to
provide electronic advanced passenger manifest information as soon as
the aircraft left the foreign port or place. This information was

then

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checked through the various databases such as NCIC etc. It allowed

the

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federal government to provide the necessary arrival courtesies for
those passengers arriving in the United States who were the subject

of

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outstanding warrants, suspected smugglers etc.
But there is certainly no government data base in existance which
tracks all travel and hotel reservations
--
Nigel Brooks

Post by HMFIC~1369
I read! It's common knowledge now....Maybe you should study the
ramifications of the Patriot Act! Then you will know the source and

not

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have to ask people for shit almost everybody already knows.

Post by dufrene237
and what is your source on this?